The School Is Out podcast with Mike and Miles. We’re all about asking questions and finding
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solutions for all things education. School is out. Now let’s get started.
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Hey Miles. Hey Mike. How you doing? I’m great. Awesome. So this week I think we’ve planned
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on talking about is it really that bad? What do you mean by that? The state of the educational
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system. Public education. Is it really that bad? Right. And we’ve talked about how on
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the podcast we’ve talked a whole lot about problems and solutions. And sometimes when
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you talk about problems associated with anything, you start to get the sense that things aren’t
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good. Right. We’re asking ourselves the question and everyone else, is it really that bad?
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So that’s some of the things that I’ve thought about driving forward into this conversation
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is there’s so much media out there. There’s so many articles written. I even saw a local
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news, a newscast on TV talking, posting scores, posting the state scores and all the schools
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around saying there’s a lot of room for improvement and these schools aren’t measuring up and
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should you be concerned. And those things are concerning to me, not necessarily that
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the schools are scoring what they’re scoring, but that the message is being broadcast out
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there that things are not okay and you should as a parent or community member be worried.
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So that’s what I think that we’re going to talk about and maybe highlight some things
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that are doing well. I know that the guidance counselor that I work with says, so give me
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a positive. Give me some positives. I think that’s important that we highlight those and
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then maybe some things that we could talk about improving that I don’t know, maybe ways of
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improving things that others wouldn’t consider fully.
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Right. And we’ve talked about coming into this podcast regardless of what we come up
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with, we’re still going to look for solutions and ways to be better. But as we look to progress,
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we’re not necessarily always saying that the things that are happening right now are awful
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or even bad in any way. So we’ll see how the conversation goes and I guess we’ll try to
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answer the question, is it really that bad?
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Great.
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So let’s talk historically for a second Miles. I know that you’ve done a little research
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here. Tell me about this one article or what not, it’s a nation at risk. Can you talk about
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that for a second?
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Yeah. A nation at risk, people within education may be familiar with it, probably learned
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about it at some point, but nation at risk is a report that came out in 1983 and a lot
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of historians, educational historians will cite this report as something that had a profound
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impact on public education from that point forward. Basically what the report said is
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that the nation’s schools were failing. And if drastic corrective actions were not taken,
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the United States would be overtaken economically on a global scale by other countries that
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had education systems that were outperforming those in the United States.
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So knowing that, and you’ve been around since 1983 and I have been too, would you say that
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that has occurred? Are we being outclassed by so many other nations and overtaken as
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a country?
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Well, you can look at different measures. I do not get the sense that the United States
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has fallen behind anybody on the world stage. We’re living in the United States and we’d
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like to thank hopefully that we’re still living in the greatest country in the world.
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I have never once gotten the sense in my lifetime that the United States was behind anybody
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as far as being a global power or being able to provide people the type of life that we
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want to be able to give.
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Right. So I would agree with you on that. On the world stage, I’d say we’re doing okay.
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In simple terms, I don’t think that the state of education in the country is so bad that
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we should be, you know, like, learned that we’re failing.
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So I guess to go back to the nation at risk and what happened with that, I’d like to look
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at some national data on student performance and a really good place to find that is the
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National Assessment of Education Progress. This group, this organization has been giving
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an assessment to students since 1971 and they’ve been kind of, they issue what’s called the
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nation’s report card and they tell everyone, this is how schools are doing right now. So
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they started doing this in 1971 and just want to pull a few interesting numbers. In 1971,
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the reading score for 13-year-olds that they assessed in that year was 255. Okay. And think
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this is about, you know, a decade before that report came out of nation at risk. So at that
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time, we’re, you know, we’re looking at how things were going in 1983. And in that report,
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basically putting out the assumption that our schools aren’t doing a good enough job.
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We have 255. But in 1971, I don’t think that we were falling behind anyone on the world
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stage, at least as far as I know. In 2023, students in the United States of America on
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that same assessment scored a 256. So think about all the improvements, all of the things
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that the country has gone through educationally since 1971. And we’re at the exact same level,
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at least according to this measure, can use any measure that you want. But this is one
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measure that you can look to that’s been given consistently for the past 50 years and say,
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our students are doing exactly the same as they were doing in 1971. And I would venture
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to take it a step further and say, in the 1950s, they were probably performing at about
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the same level on a similar measure. So what’s that tell us?
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I think that tells us one thing that we have a mindset as a country knowing that we’re
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going to do the best that we can, given the resources that we have. And the best that
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we can with those resources has been pretty consistent. So the best that we’re doing is
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still okay. Because we said before we even jumped into these numbers, I don’t think it’s
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all that bad. You know, under certain measures, we’re still doing okay. And clearly we have
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been since 71, unless 256 is a terrible number, and we’ve already been overtaken by every
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other country. I don’t think that’s the case.
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And you will see every year, at a certain time of year, you’ll see data come out. And
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it’s not the national assessment of education progress. It’s a world assessment. And the
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United States will be ranked educationally with all other industrialized countries in
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the world. United States consistently for probably the last 15 or 20 years has ranked
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in the box at like 15 to 20 in those measurements with some movement in there. But about 15
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to 20 with 15 or 20 other countries in the world outperforming the United States on some
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standardized tests, they always assessed reading, they always assessed mathematics. When that
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data comes out, there’s always a national conversation. What’s going on in the nation
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schools, our schools are failing, you know, China is number two or three, we’re being
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overtaken by China, and you’ll find Estonia right now was number two, which we could
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talk about. I don’t know that we have talked about now, but this data is being used to
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create the sense that our education system is failing. Since 1983, I think that’s been
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the sense we’re at risk, we’re failing, we need to do so much better.
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Yeah, that’s it. It’s tough for me to get into that conversation because it leads me
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down a road that asks very difficult conversations. And it there those conversations can be very
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polarized to. So if I were to repeat the question, is it really that bad? My answer would be
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not for everybody, but maybe for some. And this, this is where it almost immediately
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gets polarized because when you compare ourselves on the world stage, look at some of the things
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that we are experiencing putting into that report that other countries either aren’t
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putting into the report, or maybe don’t suffer the same, the same consequences that we suffer.
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I mean, our, our GNP within the country is the highest, if not like one of the highest
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in the world. Yet we also have a considerable homeless population. We have an incredible
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GNP, but we also have an insane number of incarcerated individuals. And that doesn’t
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even drill down into who those individuals are or who those individuals are who are
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homeless. So those are very pointed and delicate conversations to have and they, they stir up
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a lot of emotion, but at the same time to not have those conversations within this context,
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it does a disservice in my opinion. So let’s try to frame this like this conversation
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in this way then. I think the danger in asking this question is that a lot of times you create
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two sides and you have to say, yes, it’s really bad or wait a second, we’re doing a great
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job. Right now I’m not prepared to fall down on either side of that line, but I think that’s
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the danger because when teachers hear that, when school administrators hear that, when
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people in education unions hear that, what they think of is all of the hard work and
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the effort and the diligence that they’ve put into their careers, which if you’re doing
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it the right way is your life. And they say, wait a second, our schools are doing a great
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job. Our schools are doing this and this and this and this and this is how we are preparing
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our students for now in the future and they get really defensive. I’m not prepared to
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do that because I think we’ve proven on the podcast that we’re willing to look at problems
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that exist. So we’re asking the question, is it really that bad? We’re saying it’s not
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much different at least as far as how our students performed 50 years ago. Right. But
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are there things that either need to change or could be improved for us to get somewhere
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else? And I don’t know if we want to go into this now. I haven’t prepared for when we talk
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about some solutions, but when you cited those two pieces of information, I wanted to mention
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this. When you cited the incarceration rate in the United States, you’re citing the percentage
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of people living in poverty in the United States. We are not doing well as a nation
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in those areas. Those things have grown exponentially over the past 50 years. So the question I
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would ask is if those problems are only getting worse, what has our education system done
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to address those things? But holistically, one thing that I’m really attached to, haven’t
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talked about it on this podcast, is an idea of democratic education and preparing citizens
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to live in a democratic world. And I’ll go back to this later, but I would say that’s
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one of the ways where we have failed drastically as a school system to prepare our people in
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our country to function in a great, vibrant democracy.
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Yeah, that’s a good point, Miles. And again, I will agree with you. I’m not ready to fall
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on either side of the points that I made earlier. That’s definitely not where we intended this
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to go. I thought it was worth mentioning, but at the same time, I guess there’s different
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arenas to look at this. So on a world stage, I was going for, what are we putting into
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the data that’s collected, that represents us on the world stage? But then what are we
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looking at within our own selves that says, since 1971 until now, our score really hasn’t
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changed educationally on the way that we’re impacting kids? That’s more online of, what
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are we teaching our kids? Is it okay? I would say that it’s okay compared to what we were
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doing in 1971. Our kids, the output seems to be relatively similar. But that’s not to
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say that there isn’t room for improvement. But the message that’s being put out there
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doesn’t say that. A lot of times I hear that message that we need to improve or, you know,
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I don’t like that, that my kids aren’t learning this or that they’re doing this instead. That’s
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worth talking about, I think. And we talked about this before the podcast. I’ve stated
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this in the same way before. The standards trap, I think applies to this discussion.
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Because when you talk about, is it really that bad? The data, some of the data we’ve
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just cited is from standardized test data. The data that you’ll find on how the United
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States is doing on the world stage is from standardized test data. We know that standardized
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tests do not have the ability to measure critical thinking, problem solving, creativity, which
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are the three biggest factors that have been identified in recent research as what we should
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be focusing on. So if we’re focused on improving math and reading scores, which no one would
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be in this room or any other room and say, schools shouldn’t teach kids math and teach
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kids how to read well, but if that is our focus, just we’re going to improve this score
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so that we can get ahead of Estonia. If we did that, if we raised our scores as a nation
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by 15 points and got into second place and put Estonia number three, would we have solved
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whatever problem exists?
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Right. And I’m going to go back up to something that you said kind of in the pregame to this
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discussion. In 50 years in measuring our success, 50 years, we’ve had 50 years to do something.
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We’ve come up with the same number on this assessment. What’s, I mean, how do you look
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at 50 years of trying to make improvements and being at the same spot? When we look at
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math instruction, for example, are we teaching a different kid nowadays? Has the instruction
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stayed the same? So for people that might say like, there’s, there’s value in teaching
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a classic approach to learning math, you should learn to add, subtract, multiply, divide,
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I won’t disagree with that, but we’ve had 50 years of doing that and came up with the
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same result. If that result is good, then let’s say that 50 years of doing it is good.
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We don’t need to make a lot of changes to that. The same thing with reading. Our kids
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learning to read if they are and that number is good. Let’s say that we’ve done a good
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job, but who is keep, who keeps telling us that we’re doing poorly? And if it’s a standardized
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test, let’s look at that trap. What if that trap is saying, Hey, you don’t do algebra
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very well? Okay, I don’t do algebra very well. Or you don’t, you didn’t read this paragraph
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that has no meaning to you at all. And you didn’t understand what it was trying to tell
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you. You’re right because it’s 2023 right now. I don’t need to learn about whatever
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that paragraph was about. I’m being exposed to something entirely different in 2023 than
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it was in 1971. Please don’t expect me to do 1971 in 2023. So there’s a, there’s a
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lot to, there’s a lot to kind of cut up in that conversation.
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And Mike, before we started the podcast, I said to you that I think that our school system
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is doing an adequate job of preparing people to live and be successful upon graduation
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in the world today. It’s my opinion that we’re doing an awful job of preparing people to
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live and be successful in the world of the future. And what I mean by that is that we’re
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focused on those 1971 goals. We’ve locked in on those things. We’re still trying to
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just get good at something that we were okay at 50 years ago. And if we just try to get
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better at the goal from 50 years ago, we’re not going to be ready for the future. The
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world has changed in so many different ways. We can’t even talk about them all right now.
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But just saying that our schools aren’t good enough at whatever test we’re going to give.
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And you know what? We’re going to drill down on those things and just focus on getting
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back to basics and the standards. That camp has had 50 years. They’ve had their time.
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That’s what I’m saying. And I don’t want to sound like I’m being too passionate about
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this, but they have had their time. It hasn’t changed a single thing. Show me one way that
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education has gotten better. The system, not like what a teacher is doing in their classroom
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or dude, those things are awesome. We want to hit on those things. Right. Not saying
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that. Show me one way that the system has gotten better since 1971 and helped to improve
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the lives of kids are coming into our schools. And I’ll say that approach has worked. It’s
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moved the numbers zero and even if it moved the numbers 10, should I say this? So what?
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Great. So what? And Miles, thank you for saying that because now you’re digging into what
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I’ve been passionate about for so long. And even in our talk before the podcast, we’ve
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said it has no effect to that number. What when a kid leaves a building or when a teacher
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comes into a building, so kids and teachers come into a building and then they either
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go home or graduate or whatever you want to call that they come in, they go out. What’s
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their perception of what just happened to them? If their perception is negative, do you
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think that those kids are going to do as well? And there’s research on this left and right.
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Do you think they’re going to do as well or have a as clear projection as if they went
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in and left happy? So their perception on their education means to me more than that
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number on that standardized test. Because guess what? I can cite evidence that says
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there’s kids going into schools happy and leaving schools happy and being successful in life.
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And that’s a failing school according to a standardized test. And what has changed? Absolutely
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nothing. Just a perception. Yes. Just a perception. Think about this. In the 1930s, my grandmother
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went to elementary school right over this hill real close to us. She came out of there
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and was part of what has been labeled the greatest generation. They changed the world.
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They won World War II. They came out of the Great Depression. They industrialized this
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country and we have been wildly successful with the 1930s curriculum. We need to progress.
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We need to advance. The same kids that live in the same neighborhood as my grandmother
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almost 100 years ago are now going to a school that’s labeled a two out of 10. This place
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is doing an awful job of preparing people for the future. We are failing. We’re at risk
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as a nation. We are failing. Something doesn’t sit right with me. But like you talked about,
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now those kids go to that school and I feel like they’re going to a bad school. Those
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teachers go to that school and they feel like they’re teaching at a bad school. Even though
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they’re doing great things maybe in their lessons, in their classrooms, they’re working
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with those students who are dealing with some maybe very hard problems every day. On whatever
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level they know they’re going to work at a school that someone else is saying is doing
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an awful job. I’m here to say even to a community of learners, I’m going to provide opportunities
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for your student in this school. They’re going to welcome those opportunities. I’m going
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to try and create an idea in their head that they can choose the path that they want to
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go. The teachers coming into this building are going to feel encouraged to do their job
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under that idea. Not under the idea that, hey, the kids aren’t reading at a certain
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grade level and you need to do a better job or else something’s going to happen. I don’t
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know what that something is but it’s going to happen. Threat, threat, threat, punitive,
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punitive, punitive, we need to do better, better, better. Do what better and how? The
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people who are saying that we’re not doing well enough also aren’t telling us how better
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to do it and if they are telling us how better to do it, what is it that they’re comparing
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what we’re doing to? I’m going to tell you, I’m going to answer your question. They don’t
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know. Exactly. They and that’s the standards. I’m just going to call it the standards approach.
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You could call it a traditional approach. I don’t care what you want to call it. They
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don’t know. They’ve been trying to do the same thing for 50 years. The number hasn’t
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moved. I’m going to return to what we talked about on one of our first podcasts and I think
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this needs to come back up. What’s the goal? We just have the wrong goal and we’re using
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the wrong measures to assess that. I think that’s part of what it comes down to to me.
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Is it really that bad? We’re doing great things in our schools. We are able to sometimes
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transform the lives of students in ways that wouldn’t happen if the schools that we have
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in this country didn’t exist. I was thinking about this coming into the podcast COVID and
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when students weren’t able to go to school daily, some of the things that happened as
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a result. We talked about this in the school lunch podcast also, but they didn’t get
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fed routinely often. They didn’t have the social emotional support that’s provided by
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schools and for the first time in a long time, you heard people say, oh, geez, I finally
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realized what schools do or what teachers do. I didn’t hear one time ever in those conversations
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though. My son or daughter isn’t getting out for one. I didn’t hear that. I heard the social
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aspects that aren’t there, the support from teachers, administrators, counselors, that
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social emotional well-being that schools provide. I didn’t hear. I honestly did not hear, I’m
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not getting good math instruction today. I think that’s worth reflecting on and thinking
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about moving forward. Sure. You heard things like my kid missed school. There you go. My
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kid missed going to school and learning and being with his friends and teachers. So yeah,
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well put. So again, is it really that bad? Let’s look at a measure that tells us on a
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large scale if it’s really that bad. Graduation rate. So yeah, Mike, I pulled some statistics
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because I was interested in this. Graduation rate is something that’s cited often as a
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measure of school success. I looked at the graduation rate in for high school students
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in the state of Pennsylvania. It’s 89%. Pretty good. Say there’s room for improvement. I
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would like to graduate 100%, but doing about 89%. So then I was interested. I looked at
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the graduation rate for West Point. It’s 84%. My point with bringing those two statistics
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to this episode is just that people probably look at West Point’s graduation rate, 84%.
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And I say they’re doing a pretty good job of weedin’ out the people that shouldn’t
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graduate. The same way we look at high school graduation rate and say if it’s not 100%,
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the school’s failing. Right. You should graduate 100% of your students. What are you doing
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wrong? If we look at it that way, shouldn’t West Point graduate 100% of their students?
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Also, what’s wrong with West Point? Right. There’s some other thing going on there. And
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I guess this is really interesting when we talk about that graduation rate. I’m only
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going to make a little side note of that. People who advocate for a stringent or strict
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education and say, well, you know what, if kids are making bad decisions, they don’t
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deserve or they shouldn’t. Again, I think I’ve said this on a past episode. Be careful
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what you wish for because if you’re in the business of kicking kids out, even for behavior
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or poor behavior, what community are you creating by kicking kids out of your schools? So be
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very, very, very careful with that. So I think you kind of touched on that point with West
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Point and with the state of our, with the graduation rate of Pennsylvania being 89%.
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What is it that you’re creating? I guess I would ask that question too. What is it that
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you’re creating by weeding those kids out after they’ve gotten in? So there’s probably
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more in-depth conversation we can have just to run graduation rate. I just wanted to
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cite that as another measure and give you something to think about that. The disparity
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there between PA, high school graduation rate and West Point graduation rate and people
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can chew on that and contemplate and maybe return to it someday. Here’s another one too.
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This kind of next on the list is, is it really that bad? If it’s really that bad, if it’s
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as bad as sometimes being painted to be, then wouldn’t there be just money flowing into
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this at an exorbitant rate? Like shouldn’t there be like an absolute influx of tax dollars
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of relief for failing schools? I mean wouldn’t you have felt that as a taxpayer, this incredible
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burden of wow, we’re doing so poorly that my tax dollars are being significantly increased
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to go to programs to improve the state of education. I haven’t really felt that. I mean
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I’m still kind of in that same realm of paying a regular tax for schools and kind of on track
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to do what we’ve been doing. The school district with which I pay taxes too isn’t coming to
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my house saying, hey, you know what, we’re in dire need here. We need to bolster taxes.
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And I guess where I’m going with this too is some people have said, well you can’t just
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throw money at the problem. No, you can’t just throw money at a problem and expect it
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to go away, but we need to assess the problem. What is the problem? Is the problem academic
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or is the problem something different if there is a problem at all? And I guess where I’m
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trying to get with this too is, if there is a problem, to me the problem is more perceptual
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problem than it is an academic performance problem. Because the perception is being
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painted through media, through other sources that it’s not so good when we’re saying right
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now that it’s not so bad either. So what is it that’s not so good? And if you keep pushing
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this idea on me, it’s more of a perception. And that perception can get kind of deep.
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It can get deep into teachers that so the perception is that I’m not doing a good job.
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Now I’m stressed and I’m worried about what I’m doing as a professional. It could be the
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perception that a student has. So I’m going into a building that’s poorly performing.
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Now what’s in it for me as a student if I’m going to a poorly performing school? Or if
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I’m a community member with a poorly performing school as my community, geez, should I even
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stay here? Did I make a good life decision to be here?
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And I get a return again to some of the things we talked about in the What’s the Goal podcast.
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If all these things you’re saying are true, I think it’s not a stress to say the mission
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is poor. The mission that we’ve established is poor. 1983, our schools are failing. These
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are our test scores. We need to raise those scores. We need to do better math and reading
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or else we’re going to fall behind. Okay, we’re doing the exact same or maybe a little
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better or a little worse or whatever. But those are the measures. The mission is failed.
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Teachers are leaving the profession at a rate which is faster than ever before seen. It
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is difficult to attract young and talented people to the teaching profession or education
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in general. Because of some of the things that you just cited, everyone feels like they
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have attempted to win this battle and they failed and people are saying you’re still
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not doing a good job. We’ve given you all the resources that you need. You’re still
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not doing any better than in 1983. But if you look at that report and the authors who
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wrote it, they’ll tell you that wasn’t true. Right. Our schools were actually doing okay
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then. So what I’m saying is I think you’re saying the same thing. Those numbers while
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they can be used to assess how things are going are not the only thing that we need
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to use. They can’t be the goal. We need to make new goals. Yes. And I would say largely
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in 1971 or 2023 our schools aren’t doing exactly what they need to do to prepare people for
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the world of today and tomorrow. We’ve said this, we can do a lot better. I believe that
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to be true. At the same time, I don’t think the work that people are coming to do every
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single day in our schools is bad. I think a lot of times they’re giving in all they
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have. They’re trying to accomplish the wrong things, but the people who really know they’re
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doing the hard work that doesn’t show up in those numbers. That’s right. And they’re
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even working to improve those numbers and a lot of times are and people are still telling
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them you’re not good enough. So to that point, let me let me give you a little story. I’ve
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shared this with you personally before. There’s a school not too far from here. It is a charter
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school and they they take difficult children because it’s a charter school. They still
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they participate in Keystone testing the the Pennsylvania standardized testing, but they
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take difficult children. Some of the children that are there court placed. Some of the children
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that are there are electing to go there. So this is for troubled youth. And when I talked
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to the director of that school face to face, the the director said to me, we fail on our
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Keystone exams every single year. Our academic performance is a failure every single year.
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And I said to him, how does that make you feel? And his response is this place needs
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us more than we need that score on the exam. And that there was a moment in time that I
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will never ever forget because that person said to me after that this next statement
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was there is a line to get into this school because there are people that know that they
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won’t graduate unless they go to that school. We’ve said on how many podcasts we need to
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treat individuals like individuals. And there are individuals that need an extreme high
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level of structure that that school provides in order to be successful. And because of
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that there’s a line going out the door that they can’t even accept all the people that
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want to attend that school. They take people who are court placed. They take people who
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are in dire need of graduating because of poor choices they’ve made. But they also then
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fill their ranks with people who want to go there. And the line is out the door. And
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he says, I don’t care about those standardized tests. What are they going to do? Close us
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down.
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And what a refreshing attitude to take. He’s figured out the goal is wrong. Right. His
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mission is to give each one of those students what they need to be successful later. If
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they only focused on test scores and that’s how they chose to measure themselves. And
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let’s say hypothetically they focused on that every day and they got every student at that
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school to be proficient or advanced on those reading and math tests. Would those kids have
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what they needed to be successful? If that’s all that we gave them, we’re going to do great
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on these tests. Are you now ready for life? Because you were proficient and not basic on
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this math and reading test?
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Right.
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And they figured it out. And Miles, I don’t know if you’ve ever been told this. I have
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been and I don’t, I’m not trying to offend anybody, but I’ve been told, Mike, you don’t
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want to be in school improvement with the state. That is something you do not want to
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be in. And I, my answer was why. Why do I not want to be in school? The amount of work that
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you have to do in order to create plans and assess those plans and make sure that this
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and that’s happening. And my response to that was, was I kept it in my head, but that’s
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what I do now. That’s what I do now. I measure what we do, but on more than one scale than
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a standardized test, believe you me, I measure what we do on a daily basis and I’m very reflective
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about what we do. But I can tell you foremost before those standardized test scores come
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in, I want to make sure that my kids were leaving my school the same way they left my
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classroom excited and ready to come back tomorrow. That’s where I stand as a school leader.
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That statement might get me fired in the future because somebody’s like, well, you’re
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not, I’m not what dedicated to my community dedicated to the kids that attend our school.
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That’s what I am. And the rest hopefully will come along. But if it doesn’t come along,
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I dare you to point that finger at me or the teachers or other people who aren’t working
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hard every single day to provide something to our kids more than a preparedness for algebra
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and science or a literacy exam. And I’m glad that you said that in that way. I’ve kind
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of heard you say those things in a similar way over the years, but I’m glad that you
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said them here because I feel like everyone needs to hear those words from you and that
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perspective. And you wrote down some of the things that would go into looking at your
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level of success as a school leader, you know, looking at the the way that students feel
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and their morale in your building, the way that teachers feel and their morale, the types
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of after school programming that you’re able to offer students or extracurricular opportunities
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and just opportunity in general. None of those things show up on those tests. If you’re
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focused on the bigger goals for your students in your school, you personally or other school
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leaders out there or teachers, that’s what matters. We know that’s what matters. We’re
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not going to be defined by just the results on a couple of standardized tests.
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Right. And I’m going to beat that dead horse one more time. The thing that keeps me going
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isn’t when parents come up to me and say, I love that my kids go to your school because
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they’re reading at grade level. I don’t hear that. That is not what keeps me going.
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Right. And you could probably cite a hundred kids that you’ve worked with in the past five
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years that while hopefully their academics improved over the time that they were in your
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building, the other things that they got out of their educational experience, some of the
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things we’ve talked about are more important. We know that as educators, the way that you’re
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able to inspire, motivate, help and support that aren’t going to show up on those tests,
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maybe sometimes they do. But it’s not going to be defined by a single data point that’s
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really easy and convenient to use and put a score on a building.
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Right. Now, I’m not going to say that the state hasn’t tried to make improvements to
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their standardized assessment measures. I mean, they, on from the no child left behind,
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which was, you know, at the time I was a young educator, I looked at that as being very punitive.
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We’re either going to succeed or we’re going to get in trouble. And I mean, we felt that.
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I felt that as a young teacher. It’s like, whoa, geez. I mean, they’re going to come
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in and like fire us and replace us. Yes, you’ll be replaced and they’ll, they’ll, well, they’re
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not going to. They didn’t. Sure. And then it’s, it’s changed to the newer model of, well,
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now we’re going to put in a measure for closing that, that gap in achievement. So now the
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state kind of measures on their assessment mastery and growth, if you will. But at the
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same time, there’s still a little measure of, of there’s a little punitive in there too.
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It’s like, well, if you don’t make this and you don’t achieve that, then you’re going
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to get in trouble. Okay. And what does trouble look like? We’re going to make you write plans
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and you’re going to, you’re going to be burdened with all these things. We’ve addressed this
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in this broadcast just a minute ago in other podcasts. So they’re trying in their own little
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way to say, we want you to have a sense of accountability. Thank you. I take that. I
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00:39:27,600 –> 00:39:32,600
accept that. We want you to focus on the fact that if you can’t get every single kid to
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master everything you teach, we at least want you to show that they’re growing. Okay. I
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00:39:37,240 –> 00:39:43,440
appreciate that. Thank you. We’re going to do that. But is that happening? Is that happening
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00:39:43,440 –> 00:39:48,960
all the time? Not really on that assessment. I mean, but please don’t tell me that my kids
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aren’t growing or that my kids aren’t achieving. Our kids have problems that make it so that
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it’s difficult for them to present that data on that assessment. But that’s not to say
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that it isn’t happening. Again, we’ve mentioned before, I’ve mentioned before, I still need
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that level of accountability as a school leader. I need that push in order to know that I’m
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still pushing for academics in our building. But there’s more to school than just the output
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of academics. Right. It’s a fine measuring point. It’s fine. It is not the being be all
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and end all of what our system should be. Return to the initial question. Is it really
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that bad? I guess it depends on what you’re looking at. I mean, if you want to call our
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schools bad because our kids are not performing well on an algebra one test, okay, then then
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call our schools bad. But I will also say, do you know what the number one most failed
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00:40:58,840 –> 00:41:07,560
course in the country is? Algebra one. There you go. And why is that? Why is algebra one
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the most failed course in the country? But it’s also then the number one measure that
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00:41:13,800 –> 00:41:19,520
says whether our schools are doing well or not. Well, one of them. That’s something that
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you should just ask yourself. Those are questions that should be talked about. And we know or
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I know that algebra one is a what they call a gateway course to future college success.
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So I don’t want to talk a whole lot about algebra, but I think it can be used in this
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conversation. That it’s a way that course success in that course is a way of determining
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someone’s future success in a lot of ways if they’re going to be able to go to college
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and be successful, even though the actual application of the skills taught in that course
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probably have very little to do with how someone will do in college, depending on what major
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they choose to take, or what they’re going to do in their future career outside of academia.
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And it’s just a little illustrative piece of how we put things in place in our system
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00:42:24,440 –> 00:42:31,320
that really don’t matter. Right. I don’t know how else to say it. They really don’t matter.
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If you gave me the algebra one keystone test right now, I have no idea how I would do on
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it. But when I go to help a 13 year old or a 14 year old with algebra one, and it’s out
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of context in my mind, I then have to say, let me say an example, I don’t use algebra
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one daily to do the things I need to do to be successful. Now either I’m screwed up,
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and I’m not using algebra one, right? Or it’s not applicable to daily life. Right. And if
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it’s not applicable to daily life, I can ask the question, why are we so worried about
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00:43:10,200 –> 00:43:17,640
it? Right. And I would say the same thing when it comes to the measure of reading. I mean,
435
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we’ve talked about this personally before. So I’m not reading at grade level. Well,
436
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here you go. I’m 47 years old. Do I read at grade level? Do I read at grade level for a 47 year
437
00:43:29,080 –> 00:43:38,040
old gentleman? I don’t know. I really don’t know. I can tell you, I don’t read or it took me decades
438
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to read for for leisure. I read science fiction and stuff like that. But who’s to say that
439
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I’m reading at grade level? What’s my fluency rate? I don’t know. We’ve talked about that before.
440
00:43:49,880 –> 00:43:54,920
How’s your ability to identify the main idea and that paragraph that you read, the first paragraph
441
00:43:54,920 –> 00:43:59,240
of the novel? How are you doing on that? Yeah, right. It depends where you want to read the 15,
442
00:43:59,240 –> 00:44:03,880
or you’re able to do 15 out of 15 on the 15 comprehension questions for the novel that you
443
00:44:03,880 –> 00:44:09,560
just did. Exactly. Exactly. And you know what the answer when it comes to something like that is
444
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it depends. Was I interested in it? Did I care about what I was reading? You know, did it have
445
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a function for me other than to get a score on something? Because if it didn’t, I probably
446
00:44:20,760 –> 00:44:23,960
didn’t get a score. I’ll give you a grade, man. I’ll give the state of Pennsylvania a great measure
447
00:44:23,960 –> 00:44:31,640
to use or the federal government or whoever wants to use it. Let’s give a reading enjoyment test
448
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to every student in the United States of America. Yeah. And let’s see how much they enjoy reading.
449
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Yeah. Based on their school experience. And let’s give it, let’s give the same test. Let’s
450
00:44:40,760 –> 00:44:44,680
travel back in time and give it 50 years ago. Yeah. And let’s see how many people enjoyed
451
00:44:44,680 –> 00:44:49,880
reading that because I can tell you I’ve looked at data on reading and people are reading for
452
00:44:49,880 –> 00:44:56,680
leisure and enjoyment much less than they were 20, 30 and 50 years ago. I would ask the question why
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you could say a whole lot of different things, but I will tell you that in my opinion, one of the
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00:45:01,320 –> 00:45:06,200
thing that’s happening is people are being taught not to like to read in school. Well, let’s look
455
00:45:06,200 –> 00:45:10,600
at the other side of that too. Let’s the enjoyment piece of it and then the functionality piece of
456
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it. Here’s an interesting one. I haven’t looked at the data. I haven’t even searched for it if it
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exists at all. But if we’re even going to measure the functionality of reading, why don’t we look
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at the number of people that have or do not have driver’s licenses? You have to be literate in order
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to take an exam to be a driver. So you’re saying that it’s such an emergent need that we have
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that our kids aren’t testing on reading, but they all drive. Well, hold on a second. That tells me
461
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that reading is a tool to understanding something. And it is and they’re using their tool to get a
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driver’s license. What else are they using that tool for successfully? But we’re going to say that
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people are failing. Right. And get a loser feeling. Yeah, I want to take that and shift in one
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direction. I’ve made the point that I don’t think education sole purpose should be preparing people
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to be successful in the workforce. I think there’s more to that than education. But just let’s look
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00:46:14,680 –> 00:46:20,360
at the workforce for a second. Do we believe that the education system in the United States of America
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is preparing people to be successful in the workforce? Whatever jobs are out there in the
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United States are people graduating from high school and not being prepared to fill those jobs.
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I would tell you the unemployment rate is very low in the United States. One of the lowest
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all time levels. I would tell you that you can look at articles that will tell you that there are
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literally thousands of people walking around with advanced degrees in mathematics, physics,
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00:46:54,040 –> 00:47:01,000
and other STEM fields that are not employed. And you want to hear opinions from people somewhere
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that say we need to prepare more people in the STEM fields. We need to prepare people for coding
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or whatever that is. I don’t think that that’s true. I’m sorry. I don’t think I can’t find any
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actual data that tells me that there are thousands of unfilled jobs in the United States that we
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00:47:20,920 –> 00:47:26,200
just can’t fill because we don’t have a qualified workforce. Right. And is there some kind of an
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00:47:26,200 –> 00:47:32,520
assumption out there that all future jobs are computer science related? Because that seems to
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be the thing that I keep I keep feeling that in my soul. Like all our kids aren’t ready by the time
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they graduate for the jobs of the future, which are all computer science oriented and STEM field
480
00:47:41,960 –> 00:47:46,920
job. Are they all? Is that what all the jobs are? They’re all computer science related and
481
00:47:46,920 –> 00:47:54,920
technology and rocket science. Hmm. So my question to do there is just basically make the point that
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saying that our schools are failing or they’re not doing a good enough job. To me, it doesn’t always
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00:48:02,840 –> 00:48:09,320
hold water when you’re just looking at making people employable for current careers or future
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00:48:09,320 –> 00:48:18,200
careers because it seems like our country is fully employed. People are doing well and we’re a
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world leader. The two things don’t mesh. Right. And that sense of community, I think, is where
486
00:48:24,120 –> 00:48:28,600
you’re getting at. It goes all the way up the ladder. Sense of community within your own home,
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00:48:28,600 –> 00:48:33,400
sense of community within where you live, sense of community within the country as a whole.
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00:48:34,200 –> 00:48:40,200
There’s nothing wrong with teaching those layers or putting down that foundation of
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in addition to an academically rigorous program, I’m also going to teach you how to be
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how to be a productive citizen or somebody to contribute to your local community or somebody
491
00:48:54,440 –> 00:49:01,480
who’s going to be able to be a family oriented person. Those things we should not get away from.
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Those should be very, very important pieces of our curricula. So I know that you’re passionate
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about that. I am Mike. And one of the things we’ve seen, we’ve seen school, the time students spend
494
00:49:16,120 –> 00:49:24,200
in school kind of dominates their young lives. And you would say we have other, we have things like
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social, emotional learning being put into schools. We have things like character education being put
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into schools, those types of things because people have said, wait a second, the students who are
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graduating from school, we want them to have good values also. We want them to be able to have
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00:49:39,080 –> 00:49:46,120
positive relationships. All those things are very important. We’ve been focused on reading and math,
499
00:49:46,120 –> 00:49:51,000
but schools do so much more. Yes, they do. They are important. Can we measure someone’s
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00:49:52,120 –> 00:49:58,360
social, emotional competencies with a standardized test? Probably not. Do we get a sense from talking
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with our students and families at school that we’re doing a good job or need to do better
502
00:50:03,000 –> 00:50:09,240
at those things? I’m sure that we do. Those things are very important. And one of the things that I
503
00:50:09,240 –> 00:50:17,000
would just like to make as a point is that John Dewey 100 years ago was talking about the idea
504
00:50:17,000 –> 00:50:22,920
of democracy and education. And he was talking about how we need to teach in a democratic way,
505
00:50:22,920 –> 00:50:32,120
and we need to treat students in a democratic way to be able to have our citizens be well functioning
506
00:50:32,120 –> 00:50:37,880
members of a democratic society. I would cite some of the things that you mentioned earlier,
507
00:50:37,880 –> 00:50:44,440
as far as incarceration rate, as far as percentage of students living in poverty,
508
00:50:45,400 –> 00:50:51,160
as far as if you just look at the current political climate, as how it seems that our country is
509
00:50:51,160 –> 00:50:57,160
getting along together between political parties, things that have happened, the future moving
510
00:50:57,160 –> 00:51:03,960
forward. It doesn’t always look bright to me. What I would say is, is that we’ve been focusing
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00:51:03,960 –> 00:51:10,200
on some of the wrong things in school, as we should have been focusing on teaching people to
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00:51:10,200 –> 00:51:15,960
live democratically and together into function well and how they can live in the system that we have.
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00:51:16,600 –> 00:51:21,560
And we failed in that way. And you’re seeing a breakdown in some of the institutions that
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00:51:21,560 –> 00:51:32,040
depend on people to be well schooled in those things. Right. And so, I guess as a bit of advice to
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00:51:32,920 –> 00:51:37,720
parents, future parents, if you’re going to walk into a school or if you’re going to research
516
00:51:38,280 –> 00:51:43,960
whether you want your child to go to this school or that school, let there be something in addition
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00:51:43,960 –> 00:51:50,360
to those marks. Maybe go have a conversation and ask just an interesting question. How do your kids
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00:51:50,360 –> 00:51:57,160
like going to school here? How do your staff enjoy working here? What’s your perception of
519
00:51:57,160 –> 00:52:02,520
this school? What do you value most about working here? Those are great questions to ask either
520
00:52:02,520 –> 00:52:08,360
school employees, kids, other parents in the community, in addition to how well do they fare
521
00:52:08,360 –> 00:52:14,040
academically. But if you’re going to ask how well they fare academically, please include other courses
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00:52:14,040 –> 00:52:20,760
outside of what are assessed on national exams or on state exams. So, get a little bit of a
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00:52:20,760 –> 00:52:26,600
qualitative approach to that. And that’s one of the things that I’ve thought of in related to this
524
00:52:26,600 –> 00:52:33,320
topic as a possible solution. We give at the building where I work, we give climate surveys
525
00:52:33,320 –> 00:52:37,560
every year. And I believe that’s a requirement through the state. We give climate surveys to
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00:52:37,560 –> 00:52:43,800
students, we give climate surveys to faculty, we give climate surveys to parents, all three
527
00:52:43,800 –> 00:52:51,800
groups and we collect that data. I believe that that is probably the most important data set
528
00:52:51,800 –> 00:52:57,160
that we collect at any time during the year and we should rely more on that as far as assessing
529
00:52:57,160 –> 00:53:01,720
our schools. How do our parents think we’re doing in preparing the young people and giving them a
530
00:53:01,720 –> 00:53:09,000
good, safe, quality place? How do teachers feel? How do students feel about how this place is
531
00:53:09,000 –> 00:53:15,880
preparing them for the future? And I think that if we relied more on some of those types of measures
532
00:53:15,880 –> 00:53:20,600
and like you’re saying, a holistic qualitative approach to assessing a building, we’d be in a
533
00:53:20,600 –> 00:53:26,200
lot better place. Because when you are looking at moving to a new community or thinking about where
534
00:53:26,200 –> 00:53:31,800
your kids go to school and you Google search the school, one of the first things that pops up is that
535
00:53:31,800 –> 00:53:37,960
great school score for any school. And that might say eight, nine, zero all the way, you know, it
536
00:53:37,960 –> 00:53:42,840
could be any number. And if you see a low number somewhere, you’re going to think that school
537
00:53:42,840 –> 00:53:47,400
isn’t doing a good job. There’s a lot more to the picture there though. I agree. And I think that
538
00:53:47,400 –> 00:53:54,360
that was a good way to to wrap this podcast or even to just affirm to everybody, is it really that bad?
539
00:53:56,440 –> 00:54:02,920
No. No, it’s not as bad as what is what some people might be trying to get you to think.
540
00:54:02,920 –> 00:54:10,280
Is it really that bad on certain measures? Maybe. But historically, it’s always been
541
00:54:10,280 –> 00:54:16,680
what it’s been. We’re just missing that qualitative piece, like you just said. We’ve been not broadcasting
542
00:54:16,680 –> 00:54:24,440
those great things as much as we’ve been putting emphasis on the other. Right. So maybe the way
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00:54:24,440 –> 00:54:29,240
I’d like to close for administrators, for teachers, even for families that feel as though their
544
00:54:29,240 –> 00:54:35,400
kids are going to schools that are doing a great job, that the data points that are traditionally
545
00:54:35,400 –> 00:54:43,000
used might not say are doing a great job. Don’t be afraid to say, I think our school is doing a
546
00:54:43,000 –> 00:54:49,320
great job. Teachers don’t be afraid, like you said, to build that culture as a building leader where
547
00:54:51,640 –> 00:54:56,680
we’re focused on the big picture. We’re focused on making sure everyone who comes to work here and
548
00:54:56,680 –> 00:55:03,400
come to school here loves being here. That’s our job, to give you a great experience, not focused
549
00:55:03,400 –> 00:55:12,440
on that great school’s number so much. Right. You know, if all we do is focus on that number,
550
00:55:13,000 –> 00:55:17,480
and we just put different programs in place to try and change that number, I will tell you
551
00:55:17,480 –> 00:55:23,000
firsthand, as an educator, you always wonder what that number is going to be in the back of your
552
00:55:23,000 –> 00:55:28,680
mind. That will drive you insane because you don’t know exactly what you personally did to affect
553
00:55:28,680 –> 00:55:33,880
that number. So when you keep doing things and don’t know what that change is going to be,
554
00:55:33,880 –> 00:55:39,800
you’re going to go a little bit nutty. I don’t want that to be the focus on educators’ minds.
555
00:55:39,800 –> 00:55:44,760
I don’t want that to be the focus on parents’ minds, students’ minds, anything. We’ll get to
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00:55:44,760 –> 00:55:50,440
a quality education. We will hold ourselves accountable to a high standard, and we will also
557
00:55:50,440 –> 00:56:03,000
create happy, thriving kids in our buildings. So just like Dr. Joe Holtz told a first year
558
00:56:03,000 –> 00:56:07,960
teacher, Miles O’Shea, over 20 years ago, first language arts classroom, close your door,
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00:56:08,600 –> 00:56:15,000
teach, and do what you know is best for your kids. Do not worry about what people are saying as far
560
00:56:15,000 –> 00:56:21,480
as the standards or assessment and any of that goes. I’ll apply that to the year 2023, to schools,
561
00:56:21,480 –> 00:56:26,680
to the entire education system, to all educators. Do what you know is best for your kids and focus
562
00:56:26,680 –> 00:56:31,800
on the things that you feel are most important. Close your door, do what’s best for them.
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00:56:31,800 –> 00:56:37,640
Let all that other sound about, this school isn’t great or whatever. Let that stay out there. Do
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what you think is best. And you know what? I hate to have another word on top of that,
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but I am going to plug our website. If you don’t know what those things are, go to schoolsout.org.
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Look at some of the things that we’ve talked about. They’re posted there. It’s all there.
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We’ve put that out there for everybody, and it can be done.
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It can definitely be done, and we’re optimistic about the future, and we’re going to keep having
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conversations about the way to get there, and we’re excited about hopefully the resources that
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we’re going to continue to offer people as we are part of the conversation of making positive change.
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Just like that.
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This has been the Schools Out Podcast. Continue the conversation and explore
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past and future episodes. The school is out.org.
School is Out! 